tv Lockup New Mexico MSNBC February 4, 2012 3:00pm-4:00pm PST
is in the republican president atrace tonight, it's vegas, baby. nevada is holding the first in the west contest of this nominating season. 28 delegates up for grab in caucuses that have been going on throughout the day, with mitt romney hoping to win nevada for the second time after taking the state in 2004. and thank you for joining msnbc's special live coverage of the nevada caucus. i'll be talking you through the
next couple hours, in the latest gop battleground and joining mess a great panel, karen finney, and msnbc political analyst. michael steele, the former rnc chairman and msnbc analyst, and steve kornacke, a political columnest for salon.com. we'll hear from them in just a moment. let's start on the ground. mitt romney will be in las vegas later this evening to watch the caucus returns. just a short time ago he took aim at president obama's jobs records at a campaign stop in colorado springs ahead of tuesday's caucuses in colorado. >> he doesn't get credit for things getting better. i'm delighted things are getting better. but the people who deserve getting credit are people like tom who built a play like this and employed people in this great state. so is the campaign doing anything to lessen the
expectations, so they have a story to tell later tonight? >> that is not the case, though, here in nevada. from a senior adviser. just a matter of machines ago. in anticipation that it demonstrates back-to-back wins. there's a lot of men of the mormon population. this is a strong conservative state and demonstrates his support within the conservative -- the large victor already significant. he won last year with 51%, the same person he had in massachusetts, his home state, four years ago. and the south florida and now in the west specifically in nevada, they view all three as swing states. they say, thereon, the large
wins in those three states demonstrate effectively a warning shot to the obama administration, saying if they can do well in the primaries, it would be a threat to obama this fall. is the 51.1% the benchmark against which tonight's vote is going to be measured? >> reporter: they didn't want to get into that. i posed that very question, but they did indicate if you took out the mormon, they still would have won. but to give you a sense of the accomplishments, he obviously is in colorado springs, as we speak. he has plans, at least, to go to minnesota before heading back to colorado again. so they are already looking ahead so some of the upcoming primary and caucus state. >> peter, i'll chat with you again soon now we bring in chuck todd. what are we looking for tonight? >> in many ways nevada is a
pretty easy state to handicap. it's really just two cities, laws, and reno, it is literally 75% of the votes will come out of the these two counties. four years ago mitt romney was strongest in clark county and under 50%, and the way we like to divide it up here in many ways is basically under 50 in washoe county and under 50 in the other part of the state. a few things to keep in mint, when he was not the front-runner, so very likely to better than that. two, you heard peter bring up the mormon population. it was about 25% of all voters four years ago, romney won 95% of them. it accounted for half of his vote total, but the romney campaign is right, if you took the mormons out, he still would
have won four years ago. they're looking to have to start a winning stream, where they can say nevada, colorado, minnesota, because that all sounds like states you have to be competitive in four years from now, but i don't want anybody to think nevada is like florida. there will not be in this one, even though this is a large hispanic population in nevada, it is very democratic. not many hispanic. >> if the moderate vote is concentrated in clark county and if clark county is closing later than the other areas of the state, is there a risk that the initial returns tonight will be misleading, because they'll be lacking that moderate vote, or frankly won't it matter? >> well, i think expect romney's numbers to grow. >> right. >> that would be what i would tell folks. as we're watching everything else come in, if clark's going to be held back as late as we think it is, because of the one poll closing that they want to deal with, for essentially the
shelley adelson caucus side, if you will, don't be surprised if that number grows a bit. i think what might be deadly for newt gingrich, does he finish second or they are. >> chuck tot, thank you for the report. each of the gop 40e7fuls have something at stake. can each manage the expectations of today's voting and beyond. joining us is karen finney, former rnc chair michael steele and steve kornacke. karen, you played a role in having nevada designated as first in the west, why nevada? >> a couple things, they were -- as -- the west had been a place where democrats thought we could see some important gains, because we hadn't been doing as well in the south. when we made those changes to the primary calendar, the
republican party essentially adopted the same changes. what we looked at, though, was high latino population, as chuck said it's very different demographic, that these are mostly of mexican descent who tend to be more democratic versus florida, which is a different mix. we also were looking at union density, which is the people who work on the strip. one of the things i note the for tonight, they aren't making any special accommodations for the waitresses, the folks who work along the strip. >> i remember that issue. >> where you had your i.d. you could come within a certain period of time, and they're not doing that. which obviously i suppose is because you don't expect there to be too many republican voters coming out of the strip. >> only after they've lost. >> what are you most interested in seeing tonight?
he wants to build the perception of momentum. he wants to build the perception that i'm the guy -- i'm going to be the inevitable one. >> sooner or later. >> so you all come now, save me a lot of headache later. the reality is that standing in his way is newt and santorum, who are both planning to create as much headache later as possible. though they were to sort of slingshot out of here the turnout will be critical. how they responsibility will be important to watch. >> steve, what are you looking at tonight most of all? >> i'm curious what the breakdown will be. pinches if you think about it,
because michael is right, romney is in position to go on a roll in february, but the key is you've got nevada, you've got arizona, you've got colorado. we've heard for a year how romney's big problem is the mormonism factor, but that's going to be one of the big keys to this february roll. now, go ahead to the first week of march when you have super tuesday. now we're talking about mississippi. now we're talking about tennessee. we're talking about states where a lot of the evan yell cal voters potential will not like the idea that the mormon vote just put this candidate into the front-runner's position. to the extent the mormon backlash thing is still an issue that will be settled on super tuesday, not this month. >> if that was forecast by a tuesday by the journal review before people started to vote. at some point doesn't it take on the appearance of a vanity play for the former speaker, for senator santorum, for congressman paul to hang in? won't the pressure build for them to sit down? >> no, not from the base.
it probably will be from the washington establishment, but not from the base. for the longest time the bates has made it clear, we want to have our say. we want the opportunities. one of the reason why we redesigned the system this way was to allow for that to happen, allow these candidates on the edges who don't have the big bank-day-old roll to state in the game to get their message, their voice out there. they have done that successfully. so the base -- everything is leading up to super tuesday, but it goesb yond super tuesday. there's still a lot of fight left in both these candidates, santorum and newt. >> and santorum can live off the land. >> as can newt, actually, to a certainly extent. you one to watch downstream will be ron paul, because ron paul is going to pick up some momentum. he may win one our two of these caucuses. so you have to watch what happened with him. >> i have just a moment if i can ask karen, are they hone it goes on for a while? >> if i was sitting at the white house, i would and i will tell you why.
when our contest went on, the positive for the democratic party was we had record turnout again and again. we grew or numbers. that was important in the general. you're not seeing that on the republican side. you're seeing decreased turnout or roughly about the same turnout yet a more and continuously fractured party. the less time, whoever the eventual nominee, we'll seem that it's romney, is to have to shift gears. >> makes a lot of sense. coming up, we'll see what the gingrich campaign is doing tonight and we'll talk about what might be ahead. can heads keep going after nevada? you're watching msnbc ease coverage of the nevada gop caucus us. so, this is delicious
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institute gingrich has no public events planned in 1/2 until later tonight. he took a jab at romney. >> trying to recover from thinks boo-boo, as the emeet media did what obama will do this fall and kept replaying "i don't care about the poor." which is not a very clever thing to say. talk about every possible example of what we don't want in a general election candidate. >> today gingrich has at the venetian. joining us live is nbc correspondent ron mott. i'm a little surprised he's still in the state. i look at senator santorum who hayes already moved on to colorado. part of me is surprised politically speak that the former speaker hasn't done likewise. >> reporter: a lot of other folks might be surprised as well. i think what this trip has largely been is, one, to try to raise some money. the campaign has made no bones they're not on the level playing
field. they claim they are out spent 4:1 in florida. so i think the speaker came here bomb mr. adelson, who owns this hotel behind us. this is a long dry month in terms of debates, which is what the gingrich campaign had used so successfully in south carolina. this is only one debate, and we have seven contests here. they're trying to raise some money to get through this month. there is a statement that he's not on tv, a few reenes, small staff and tiny office. from your vantage point, accurate? >> reporter: yes, i think especially when compared to the romney campaign. the gingrich -- organizationally, that's what it takes in primary politics.
you have to have boots on the ground, precinct captains, you have to be organized to get your candidate in front of voters. here in the three, four days, there have been few events, so i think they're playing catch-up. then you throw in the fact they're not on some ballots. >> ron, thank you. we'll join you again soon. the oxygen that gingrich desperately needs is provided from the live audiences. so if there's only one in the course of the next month, how can he lastant super tuesday.
we're seeing it again. the reason why i think he can last or at least will be relevant is civically demographic and cultural. with the southern states that will vote in early march, you can make a plausible claim -- we'll test it in march, but you can make a claim that mitt romney has a ser problem in the south. he still struggles in southern saints. we saw what happened in south carolina. we have the issue of large number of evangelical christians. and we have gingrich, a nominal southerner. so you put all those things together and say, can you get to super tuesday and gingrich who has come back from the dead twice before, can he make a stand there? if he does, we're talking about an entirely different race. >> i think what weighs against that michael steel, is that electability is very much on the minds of some of the they republican voters. some of them not because they're thrilled about the candidacy,
but so desperate to take down. . . if electability is on the minds on super tuesday of voters, what makes us thinks that newt will do well. >> because those southern voters believe he's the most electable, that he'll fight on our principles. he'll stand there and make the case that romney for whatever reason, for them, has not been made yesterday. that's the distinction. i think that heed beachhead that will be an important one. and right now newt is banking on that kind of energy, electing him and moving this thing forward. >> is that how you see it? >> it is. each of these campaigns has to make what is their narrative, their rationale? newt's rationale will be when we again to the southern states, that's where i'm going to prove
myself. santorum is making the case that he's the only true republican in the race and trying to pick up the gingrich sporters and tea party reporters. ron paul seems to be more of a protest, let's get some delegates so we can have an impact on the convention. romney, as peter alexander said in the first segment he whattants to say i did it in the west, a decent -- a showing in the northeast, i'm the guy, because again, the idea of extending the calendar is to be able to show i can win in all of these different places with all these different kinds of voters. >> i asked ron mott why isn't he moved on a la santorum, who is in a snowbound state in colorado. i think he's at the venetian, because he desperately needed adelson to write another check. >> i think the point is well taken, he's out there izraing the money hi needs to get through the next three to five weeks so that he can be
competitive when it needs to be at super tuesday. that's the bottom line. they'll do the window dressing for a lot of the interim caucuses, but at the end the the days this is all about getting the homefield advantage, getting the resources at the table s newt has said he's taking this thing to the convention. he's going to try, and it starts right now. >> the hardened base to whom newt plays so well. they want a shock to the groin and then defeat him at the ballot box. it's those passions he draws on. >> absolutely. you can see this week had a visit demonstration of how aware romney is of that. he's also very aware of how easy it would be for gingrich to get back in this game. that's why romney i think felt the need -- he doesn't want to wake up that wing of the party again saying. we're going to talk more about that trump endorsement.
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ron paul finished second in nevada in 2008, but local polls show not paul, but gingrich in second place leading up to today's voting. he told supporters in nevada yesterday to send the country a message. >> there's a lot of energy, and i always like to come to nevada, because there's a lot of people here that still believe in liberty. that's what i like. >> tonight paul is in minnesota. that's where we find our embed anthony terrell. i understand that ron paul spent a lot of money in the great
state of nevada. he'll be back here on monday and the campaign hopes to do well in this state. i'll be speaking to dr. paul later tonight in the 8:00 hour. >> anthony, was there a caucus at the bunny ranch? that's what people want to know, was it one of the 125 different locations? >> reporter: it was not a location, but when i spoke to the owner and his girlfriend, they told me that all the girls are registered republicans, and they will -- they did plan on voting in today's caucus. dennis texted me this afternoon,
and he said i'm waiting to hear back from him. >> anthony terrell, i noticed a big cheer. >> so did they strike the right notes with the state's republican electorate. joining us is amy tarkenian. amy, four years ago just 1% of the electorate showed up to vote on this day. i'm wondering if the residents of your state have yet adopted to their i definitely believe that we are more organized, we're definitely energized, and i'm looking forward to finding out what the results end up at the end of the day. >> what issue do you think has most driven voters in nevada?
we're one of the highest in foreclosures, so job and housing are the hot buttons for sure. >> from the outside looking in, i'm a bit perplexed, into you i think of nevada as a state having nominated sharron angle, a very conservative candidates to be your standard bearer against harry reid. now two years later it's mitt romney who doesn't fit that prototype. and we have to make sure that we pick the nominee who's going to be the strongest for that. does that make it more difficult to sell an opponent to president obama given now that the unemployment rate has inched ever downward? >> well, i believe
wholeheartedly nevada will go -- we're at about 12.6, we're hurting, and it's not looking any better. he said he believed it needed to bottom out or hit bottom, and i'm paraphrasing. how were those comments received in nevada? >> well, you know, i didn't hear too much discussion to it, but i can tell you we're at the bottom and we definitely need someone with real ideas, real plans and ready to go day one, not three years into the administration. >> there has to be a connection to the shark. >> that's my father-in-law, jerry tarkanian. >> thank you for joining us. >> thank you. will the endorsement help
him or hurt him? we bring back or panel into this discussion, former dnc director karen finney, former rnc chair michael steele, and steve kornacki. you're the head of the rnc -- >> i was. >> in my-you still are. >> i still am. >> and you have governor romney's best interests at heart, because you recognize he might be the standard bearer and made an inopportune set of remarks, and now you learn he's about to accept an endorsement from the donald. >> the goal is to not direct the or the nominee or potential nominee, just to make sure the ground game is in place. to the extent that anything -- you know more about the history
of -- i think in this instance i would defer toed campaign. >> no, come on, you're giving a literal answer. >> i'm very serious, though. >> you're his campaign manager. >> that's a different story. then i sit the brother down and go, look. >> when i saw that announcement, c'mon, you're not even making it hard -- i was -- he would be standing with the donald and that the donald has become the guy to go kiss the ring -- in the republican parties. >> notice two things about that. the shortness of that endorsement i thing was all of five minutes. very well scripted, very tight, and the look on the romneys during the process was, okay, we really need to move on. it was the tight grin, they get it, but i think steve hit the nail on the head. they could not less that
endorsement go someplace else, certainly not to gingrich. >> i would take the endorsement, just not that day. i would have said thank you very much, mr. trump -- >> but donald has a show on monday. >> it's all about ratings. >> the race has come to nevada, to las vegas, donald trump is ready to endorse. romney already dissed him when trump was going to be the moderator. romney was one of the reasons the debate didn't go off. trump has this outside media platform, and he's got credibility with the tea party base. palin is out there saying keep this thing going, herman cain just endorsed newt gingrich, you don't want to add trump to that pile even though, yeah, for the next six months people will be laughing. >> does he have a constituency? i'm dismissive of it. >> no, not to the degree -- not in the way that a palin or limbaugh or herman cain even
has. i think what donald again represents is another vehicle, a voice. he's the one who said doing his run there, you know, things that -- a lot of the conservatives latched on to and felt he's mimicking what we're saying, but in terms of following, in terms of say, go with this guy, do this and that, no, i think a sarah palin endorsement is still a big deal. >> let me ask you about another narrative that's developing. the president goes to the apollo, does some al green, he did it well. >> very well. >> in ten days, i love "america the beautiful" but it felt a handler said, okay, governor, get out there and break into song. and it ended up hurting, i think, into you it furthered this image that he's trying to be something he's not. karen, i'm preaching to the choir. >> i always have felt my job is to figure out what are you really good at as a principal or candidate. how do i make that come out, not make you do something you don't want to do.
clearly, though i would imagine as the president kind of indicated at the end of that song, the staff was standing backstage terrified, how is this going to go down? it was pitch perfect. he knew he could do it. i agree with romney it playing this narrative he's trying so hard, like when he was pumping gas, holding the gas hose sort of awkwardly. if that's not him, don't do that, i would say as a democrat probably he's more comfortable standing next to someone like donald trump, but find other ways to show that humanity. his wife is tutly a huge asset. she does very well with crowd and a lot of times the spouse and kids are a good way to show people that other side to someone, particularly if you can't really carry a tune. >> that's a real problem he somehow has to overcome if he's the candidate. >> i would say my reaction, that is an audience with a retirement village. audience of sort of older people who i think -- if hokieness is
going to go over with the crowd, that's the crowd. >> but we know that's not the crowd, it's the television. and by the way, he did it again, which makes me question the spontaneity. >> but i would suggest that that crowd might have appreciated a little al green, too. >> if obama were singing it, yes. >> i'm not sure about mitt. i'm not sure mitt can pull that off. square dancing, maybe. we'll talk to the las vegas rover who sat down with mitt romney and got him to admit he was wrong. >> i don't know when you do how many thousands of interviews now and then you may get it wrong, and i misspoke. >> we'll see what the impact of the comment has been in the state with the highest unemployment rate. more to come on msnbc's special coverage of the nevada gop caucuses in just a moment. [ female announcer ] this is not a prescription. this is mary... who has a million things to pick up each month on top of her prescriptions. so she was thrilled that her walgreens pharmacist
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we're getting a look at what's on the mind of nevada republicans as they headed into the caucuses today. tamron hall is here with the voice of the voters. >> hey there, michael. good to see you. nbc news conducted our entrance poll with more than 1500 nevada republicans, as they entered their party caucuses today. we found a distinct tea party presence, a greater share of the caucus goers are tea party supporters than we have seen in any other republican contests this year. 74% of those in the caucuses
today say they support the tea party. that compares to just about two thirds of voters in florida and south carolina primaries, and in the iowa caucuses. now, take a look. nevada has the highest unemployment rate as we know, in the nation, 12.6%, also the highest rate of home forclosures, so it's little surprise that's the top concern for those we spoke with today. 54% said it's the issue that mattered most to their vote. also note 33% picked the federal budget deficit as the top issue. focusing again on the tea party among caucus-goers that say they strongly support the movement, 46% noted the economy is the issue that mattered most. 38% noted the deficit as the top issue. among caucus-goers who do not support the tea party, look at
these numbers. 25% said the budget deficit was the top issue there. so we'll keep an eye on these numbers, michael and more information through the night. >> thank you, tamron hall. we look forward to it. a live event from ardent hills, minnesota, where ron paul has just taken the stage. this is bethel university. let's listen in. >> also, i'd like to introduce my wife, who is sitting over here, carol. [ cheers and applause ] and we have one of our 18 grandchildren. she's sitting with her. but its great to see a nice crowd and a lot of enthusiasm for a very special issue, something dear to my heart. that's liberty.
if government is the opposite of liberty the government in our country was created to protect liberty. unfortunately in the past few decades they have been misled and they are stealing the liberty from us. but something pretty big is happening in this country not only with the selection, but a change in sentiment, a lot of enthusiasm now for the cause of more freedom and less government, less war, and a free market economy. >> we do a fair amount of criticizing the current administration, which deserves it, and -- but our problems didn't occur in the last three years. our problems have been around for a long time. unfortunately it's been a bipartisan affair too often.
in a way, there's been too much compromise in washington. they say no, you need more compromise, but if they compromise on doing the wrong things, it's not worth very much. and these what's happened. conservatives and republicans might want to spend money in one way, so they get together and agree to it. then they agree on a monetary system that facilitates it. well, you can tax, but there's a limit, the people might object. you can borrow, but there's a limit or interest rates might go up, but then they had this crazy scheme they came up with in 1913 and said what we need to do is make sure the money isn't backed by anything, make sure it's paper and we can create it endlessly, and that has led us to this trouble we have today. this is the reason the founders were explicit during the constitutional convention and putting into the constitution that they didn't want to have
runaway inflation again, because they had it at the beginning of our history. that is why they said that the states only could use gold and silver as legal tender. and they placed an explicit prohibition against money, and they gave no authority for the federal reserve system. so if we ever want or economy back on food again, which is an absolute necessity, we cannot do it without addressing the subject of the monetary system, the subject of the federal reserve, and it should begin with an absolute complete auditing of the fed to find out who their buddies are and who they've been bailing out. so much of our problems of big government came from 1913
on, and especially in 1971, when the last link to gold was removed. that 34e7b9 there were no limits what solve, and the expansion of government, the expansion of dead, the price inflation, the many wars that we've been fighting, exponentially growth since there are no limits, except the market is also very powerful, too. governments are powerful, but markets are even more powerful, because there is a limit to how much money you can print. eventually trust is lost, and i believe this is what we have done. we've entered into a phase in these last four years, where it's been recognized that this debt and this financing and the printing of money cannot be sustained. so our efforts now to return to sound economic policies, return to our constitution, is more vital and more necessary than ever before.
so if liberty is the cause, we have to restrain the government. that is what the founders gave us. they gave us a document that placed no restraints on the people, but put restraints on the federal government. today it's been turned around. the federal government is putting restraints on the people, and they have turned the government into a secret operation. it should be the opposite. we should have full exposure, not only to the fed, but the full exposure of our government. and, of course, if we want our secrecy back and our privacy back, i would think we would have to restory the fourth amendment, which means we would have to repeal the p.a.t.r.i.o.t. act.
>> you know, the problems that have had since 9/11 have been significant. that was a bad day for all americans. many americans died. it was a very, very tough time. i was supportive of going after those individuals who were responsible and we should have done it, and we did do it, but unfortunately it provided an opportunity for our government to do a lot of things they shouldn't have done and used it as an excuse. for instance, this was their excuse to do something that they had been waiting to do, and that was to invade and overthrow the government of iraq. iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. that war was totally unnecessary, and it was based on false assumptions and lies. now, there was a simple little procedure placed in the
constitution to try to prevent wars of that sort. the provision is simply that presidents aren't allow to go to war without a declaration of war. the congress and the people through their congressman are supposed to make these declarations. i was serving on the international affairs committee when the resolution was coming along to give this they're to the president. it wasn't a declaration of war, so i want, look, this is going to lead to war. what they want to do is just give the authority to the president to do whatever he thought was necessary. they had been wanting the war for about six or seven years before this. my first speech against the oncoming war was in 1998, because it was announced by our administration that our policy was the overthrow of the government of iraq. so when the debate came up, i offered an amendment to the blanket gives of authority to the president to do whatever he wanted.
i offered an amendment that said to declare war. when i discussed it, i want i don't want the war, i'm going to vote against this amendment. but if you want the war, you should go to war in a proper fashion and vote it up or down. and, of course, they ridiculed this, they didn't want to vote, they voted. the voice vote was all no, they didn't want to pass it. then i forced them to have a recorded vote which further annoyed them. they didn't want to be on record, and of course everybody voted against it. in the discussion, the chairman of the committee explained that i was offbase to talk about the constitution, because he explained it to me, he says that part of the constitution is anachronistic, we don't follow it anymore. this constitution in a way has become anachronistic.
if we're going to have rule of law, peace and prosperity, we have to force the people who represent us. the president on down saying only people there who know hose to read and understand and will take their oath of office seriously. but because we have delivered solve power to the executive branch, we go to war without declaration, we have delivered the legislative process to the executive branch. technically under our constitution only the legislative body, the congress, writes laws. thing of all the regulations, the federal register. thousands and thousands of pages, and every year the numbers go up. i would like to be the first president that actually shrunk the size of the federal register.
'em the courts legislate. we don't live within the confines of the constitution. unless we do, we will continue in this pro. go to wars that are undeclared, spend money we don't have, print money that we don't have, but we have to change our appetite for big government. we have to ask the questions the founders asked. what should the role of government be in a free society. they came up with the conclusion that it should be very, very limited, we'll write restraints on the federal government, saying you can't do this. the constitution was written precisely to restrain the federal government, though they wanted the colonies to come together in one unit, and at the same time they wanted to restrain the government, they wanted to put no restraints on the people. but unfortunately we have gone
in the wrong direction, especially in the last 100 years, especially since 1971, but the time has come, and it's very evident something dramatic has happened in the last four our five years. although there's been several of us talking about this for a long time, the dramatic revelation occurred with this collapse of the economy with this suicidal approach, and thinking it's going to work forever. we had an economic crisis come upon us because we had too much government, too much spending, too much debt, too much taxation, too much regulation, too many wars. what do they do? they try to solve the problems with doing exactly the same thing. it's not going to work. that's why we have to change our direction. in washington they talk a bit about the budget, but they
do nothing. they talk about cutting spending, but they're not telling the truth. they're talking about, you know, that congress couldn't do it, the super committee couldn't do it, so they turned it over to an automatic cut of a try join over ten years. automatic cut, they're going to cut $1 trillion out of the increases, and they call that an extreme cut, and they're fighting each ear on trying to prevent which cuts will happen. that's $100 billion a year of cutting only proposed increases. our national debt is going up $100 billion every month. so my solution, or at least the beginning of the solution is to cut the budget by $1 trillion in one year.
some people -- some people get nervous about the government not spending the money, but i'll tell you what. don't get nervous if the government would quit spending a trillion. they don't know how to spend it. it's always spent politically, they do the wrong things, we get hit twit. they take it from us, then when they spent it, all they do is come down hard with more regulation. there's nothing wrong with this whole economic moral principle of saying you have the right to spend the money, you spend the trillion, and you spend it your way, not the way of the politician. and this can be defended on constitutional grounds and moral grounds and economic grounds